Category: family

The fate of the wicked

My son wrote this essay and I’m glad to share it.

The Fate of the Wicked: What happens to people that do not follow God?
by Tommy Cacy

Intro: The purpose of this little paper is to layout and explain what the biblical view of the fate of the wicked. What happens to people that are not Yahweh (God) followers? Sinners that do not repent, where do they go? The traditional view is to Hell, but what does that mean exactly and why do we believe it? A sneak peak ahead is that a faithful biblical reader will NOT affirm burning forever in Hell (eternal conscious torment) — pain and suffering without ceasing day and night. A faithful reader of the Bible would conclude that the wicked will be killed. Destroyed. Cease to exist. The rest of the paper will be dedicated to supporting and defending this idea.

NOTE: Firstly, I want to start by knowing nothing. No preconceived notions that come from church traditions, but just reading what the bible says. No view on Hell, and we will wait for the Bible to explain. After that, I will deal with the so-called problem verses

What does the Bible say about the wicked

Diving into the Bible verses that talk about what happens when people disobey God (i.e the wicked), also known as sin. Starting off with the first mention of sin in Gen 2:17: 

“But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.”

 In this case, if you disobey God, you die. Pretty simple and is laid out very quickly in the Bible. No reason to think death means something other than normal death. Another section about the fate of the wicked is Psalm 37. This has a lot more content and so I will spend more time on it. 

The whole Psalm is about the righteous and the wicked and what happens to them. David is urging everyone to obey God, be righteous, and his reasons for this are the rewards and punishments of the righteous and wicked, contrasting the two so we can make an informed decision about where out behavior will take us. Below I have cut snippets out of the psalm for brevity, only including the verses that talk about the wicked and highlighting the sections that talk about what happens to them.

“Do not fret because of evildoers;
do not be envious of doers of wickedness.
2 For like the grass they will dry up quickly,
and like green vegetation they will wither.

9 For evildoers will be cut off,
but those who wait for Yahweh—
they will possess the land.
10 And yet a little while and the wicked will not be,
and you will look carefully upon his place, but he will not be.

14 The wicked have drawn the sword and have bent their bow
to throw down the poor and the needy,
to kill those upright in their way.
15 Their sword will enter into their own heart,
and their bows shall be broken.

19 They will not be put to shame in distressing times,
and in the days of famine they will be satisfied.
20 But the wicked will perish,
and the enemies of Yahweh will be like the splendor of the pastures.
They vanish; in smoke they vanish.

22 For those blessed by him shall possess the land,
but those cursed by him shall be cut off.

35 I have seen the wicked acting violently
and spreading himself out
like a luxuriant native tree.
36 Then he passed on and behold, he was not.
And I sought him, but he could not be found.
37 Observe the blameless and look at the upright,
for there is a future for a man of peace.
38 But transgressors shall be destroyed altogether.
The future of the wicked shall be cut off.

That last part there — “destroyed all together” — seems definitive. They will not exist anymore. Vanishing like smoke, they will perish. You will look for them, but they are not. Their own sword will pierce their own heart. They will wither like grass. 

I cannot see any other way to understand this passage except that it is talking about death. The wicked are defeated, destroyed, cease to exist.

Another passage to look for is John 3:16: 

“For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.”

And John 10:27-28 

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Both verses are contrasting what will happen to Jesus’s sheep (the righteous followers of Yahweh) and what happens to non-sheep (non-followers or the wicked). The righteous will not die but have eternal life. Not die like the wicked. Seems consistent with what David talks about in the Psalms and what Genesis says. The wicked will die, but the righteous will have eternal life. The contrast is between life and death. Not life in heaven and life in hell. That would be good life and bad life, but this is life and death. New and Old Testaments could not have explained it better. Righteous will live, wicked will die.

But what about the verses that talk about eternal conscious torment?

Now I will provide a defense of this reading of the Bible against what I think are the key verses used to explain Hell as eternal conscious torment. The first verse that I will tackle is Matthew 25:41-46. I will quote it below and add some highlights to what I would like to draw attention:

Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! 42 For I was hungry and you did not give me anything to eat, I was thirsty and you did not give me anything to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and not serve you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly I say to you, in as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So Matthew here recounts one of Jesus’s sermons about the fate of the wicked and the righteous. He goes through the real existence of hell as an eternal fire prepared for the enemies of God. He also cites some of the sins that can get you condemned and then outlines the punishment. It is eternal punishment. The punishment is eternal, of course, but what is the punishment? Eternal is just how long it will last but not what it is. We must infer from the reward for the righteous: life. 

Both the punishment and the reward are eternal. One is life and we are not told what the other one is, but it is only a small leap to show that if the righteous receives life, wicked receives not life which means of course death. Fortunately, we do not have to guess at what the punishment is. Psalm 37, John 3, and John 10 made it clear, but even better we have a clear description on what disobedience to God gets you — we have Romans 6:23:

23 For the compensation due sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There you go. The reward for following God is life and even better eternal life. And the punishment for sin is death, and even worse eternal death. That is the plain reading of the verse. There is nothing in there to suggest what Jesus really mean was eternal pain by perpetual burning. He would really need to make that point clear, as anyone who has burned something knows, when you burn something, it is burned up and gone. So this verse agrees with the concept of Hell is where the wicked are sent to be destroyed and once they are destroyed they do not exist.

Another book often quoted to affirm eternal conscious torment is Revelation, specifically Rev 14:6-11

“9 And another third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself also will drink of the wine of the anger of God that has been mixed full strength in the cup of his wrath, and will be tortured with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torture went up forever and ever, and those who worshiped the beast and his image did not have rest day and night, along with anyone who received the mark of his name.”

 and chapter 20:7-10:

“7 And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and he will go out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle, whose number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the fortified camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Here is where we get the imagery of eternal conscious torment. Burning in Hell forever. From Rev 14 you can make a case that the smoke of their torment is eternal and not the torment itself but chapter 20 makes it clear that Satan and his followers are tormented day and night forever and ever. This seemingly disagrees with the other books of the Bible that outline death as the fate of the wicked, not torture.

The proper way to understand revelation is as Apocalyptic Literature: “it takes narrative form [and] employs esoteric language” (Britannica’s definition). It is rich in metaphors and symbols where all the character and symbols are stand-ins for something or someone else. It’s meant to give you an idea of what it will be like. In this way you have a symbol of something and then you need to figure out what that symbol means or represents. I will give an example of a symbol and its meaning from Revelation 17:3-6:

3 And he carried me away into the wilderness in the Spirit, and I saw a woman seated on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, holding a golden cup in her hand full of detestable things and the unclean things of her sexual immorality. 5 And on her forehead a name was written, a mystery: “Babylon the great, the mother of prostitutes and of the detestable things of the earth.” 6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses to Jesus.

Here we have a vision of a woman on a monster and the blood of saints and Jesus. So what does that all mean? Who is this woman? What monster is this? What does any of that mean?. Well, John (the author of Revelation) also is confused; we see this in the verses to follow (7-18):

“And I was greatly astonished when I saw her. 7 And the angel said to me, “Why are you astonished? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that has the seven heads and the ten horns that carries her. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is going to come up from the abyss, and he is going to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present. 9 Here is the mind that has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits and they are seven kings. 10 Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and whenever he comes it is necessary for him to remain a short time. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, is also himself an eighth, and is of the seven, and he is going to destruction. 12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they will receive authority as kings for one hour with the beast. 13 These have one opinion, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”
15 And he said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and crowds and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns that you saw and the beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her desolate and naked, and they will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17 For God put into their hearts to carry out his purpose and to make a unanimous decision[ and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has sovereignty over the kings of the earth.”

Here the angel explains what the vision means. The waters represent the nations. The woman is the great city. The seven-headed monster represents seven hills and seven kings. All of these images and symbols have a meaning. Once you figure out what the image is, you need to figure out what the image represents and means. That is the pattern of Revelation and Apocalyptic Literature in general.

Back to Revelation 20, the image we can all agree is torment forever in the lake of fire. That is the symbol that is used for the punishment/fate of the wicked, but if you read on, you can see that John explains what that image/symbol means. Revelation 20:14 explains exactly what the image of eternal conscious torment means:

“And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.”

The eternal conscious torment symbol means a second death. This brings the fate of the wicked described in Revelation into agreement with all the other passages that talk about the wicked being killed/destroyed/cease to exist.

Another verse that is used is Isaiah 66:24 combined with Mark 9:48. Mark 9:48 is a quote of Isaiah so I will only interact with Isaiah 66:24:

“And they shall go out and look at the corpses of the people who have rebelled against me,
for their worm shall not die,
    and their fire shall not be quenched,
        and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Here we can see the destruction of the wicked (people that rebelled): worms and fire is their punishment. It’s a fire that will not be quenched and a worm that shall not die. I do not see anything about their punishment lasting forever. The worm lives forever and the fire does not stop, but we see nothing about the wicked living forever. In fact, that very verse says they will die. What is a corpse but a dead body? That is how the wicked are described, the righteous will look for the dead bodies (corpses) of the rebels. How will the rebels die? By fire and worms. Earlier in the same chapter, Isaiah 66:15-16 says:

“For look! Yahweh will come in fire,
    and his chariots like the storm wind,
to give back his anger in wrath,
    and his rebuke in flames of fire.
16 For Yahweh enters into judgment on all flesh with fire and his sword,
    and those slain by Yahweh shall be many.”

God will come in fire and slay the wicked. The fire is from God and he will use it to kill the rebels, and worms will eat their corpses. The fire from God cannot be quenched. It will destroy the wicked.  

Pocket edition of the “wicked will be destroyed” theology 

  1. In Psalm 37, David talks about the fate of the wicked with words like “withered like grass”, “their sword will pierce their heart”, “they will perish”, “They will not be”, and finally “they will be destroyed altogether”.
  2. In John 3:16 and John 10:27-28, Jesus talks about how his followers will be saved from death, the punishment for their sins.
  3. In Mathew 25:41-46, Jesus says that the wicked will have an eternal punishment, and the righteous will have an eternal reward of life. The punishment is eternal (i.e everlasting), not eternally punished.
  4. In Romans 6:23, Paul says “the compensation of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”.

    None of these talk about eternal conscious torment at all.

  5. Revelation 14:6-11 and 20:7-10 talk about eternal conscious torment but are symbols that are to be taken seriously but not literally. Revelation 20:14 explains what the lake of fire and the eternal conscious torment means: it means death.
  6. Revelation 17 has another example of a symbol and an explained meaning.
  7. Isaiah 66:24 talks about a worm and fire not dying, says nothing about the wicked and in fact talks about the dead bodies of the wicked so they are dead for sure. Verse 15 says God is going to slay them. They are also dead, not tormented forever.

Matthew 10:28 “And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

God wants you to have lots of children

Try to think of a way in which God could communicate that he wants you to have lots of children. What would he say? What words could he use and what imagery could he employ?

Maybe he would tell you what a blessing children are. He could give examples of how having many children will improve our lives. He could contrast that with the devastation which comes from not having children. Maybe he would remind us of the joy we experience when we hear someone is pregnant, and the anticipation we have for the birth. He could promise that having many children is a direct result of our faithfulness and loyalty to him.

It seems to me that if God did everything in the above paragraph, it would be pretty clear that he is in favor of you having lots of children. And you probably guessed it already: that’s exactly what he did.

Continue reading “God wants you to have lots of children”

Keeping the faith

Funny thing. I was talking with my two older children the other night, and I started telling them stories about this friend I knew in college. Actually, I had known him since high school, but the stories were from the days we lived in the dorm on campus.

Paul Childs was a unique character. As a pre-med student, he studied voraciously. He would spend hours in the study room at the dorm, where the only rule was that you had to be quiet. I only went into the room a few times in my entire college career, for the express purpose of trying to make him laugh so he would have to leave the room. I never went in there to study — I never really saw the point. Anyway, Paul had a laugh that was infectious; his laugh made us laugh.

And that’s the way it was with Paul. His joy for living rubbed off on us. Which is why it shocked us so much when he died in suddenly at the age of 20, two weeks into our senior year of college.

The summer of 1986, Paul and I worked at the church we had attended all our lives. We were on the summer youth staff, working with high school students and having the time of our lives. We went on retreats and mission trips, had bible studies, hung out with the kids, and became even better friends. I met Paul my sophomore year in high school, so we had known each other for six years. Four of us — Paul, our friend Jim, my twin brother Kevin, and I — were inseparable. We had a great life.

Then, early in September of that year, Paul competed in yet another triathlon. This one he did not complete. Paul was in contention for the lead in the Baptist Medical Center Triathlon when his bicycle collided with a truck which had been directed into the intersection by a police officer who didn’t know Paul was coming.

There was a nice article in the Sept 9, 1986, Kansas City Star. The article quotes a friend of Paul, who said this about him:

We set goals, and he always tried to accomplish them. Before the triathlon at Lake Jacomo, he sprained his ankle playing soccer. He was so competitive…that he ran the 10ks on crutches. He finished last and was proud of it. He finished what he started.

It’s always sad when someone dies, and even sadder when they die at an early age. But our memories of them live on, and that makes the pain a little easier to bear.

I told you about Paul’s laugh; when you heard him laugh, you wanted to laugh too. Paul loved to laugh, and he loved life.

Not everyone knew that Paul in high school began to visit nursing homes to spend time with the old folks there. It started as a service project with his youth group, but when the project ended, Paul continued. He returned to the nursing home on a regular basis, through high school and into college. It seems that when Paul started something, he didn’t give up.

Those who knew him could see that perseverance in his triathlon training. It takes determination and perhaps stubbornness (maybe a little bull-headedness!) to run a 10k on crutches – who does that? – but think about the dedication and commitment to excellence that caused him to train, to work hard, to sacrifice so that he had the endurance and mental preparation necessary to actually travel ten kilometers on crutches. Paul never gave up. He finished what he started.

It’s been over 30 years, and the memories of my friend are still vivid today. I laughed with him, supported him in his races, and saw over 800 people gather at his funeral to celebrate his life. Whether it was visiting an old woman in a nursing home, or facing a ten-kilometer track on crutches where he knew he would lose, Paul persevered. He endured. And I think Paul Childs could say, along with the apostle Paul: I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

I don’t know we’re different, either

My last post talked about our kids, and how they don’t know we’re different than other families. I had a situation a short while ago which made me realize just how different we are.

I was in San Francisco at a customer event, and went down to the local British pub for dinner. The place was very crowded, but I found a small table — one of those which is about 2 feet in diameter, with high stools to sit on and not much room to eat.

I had just placed my order and was settling in to read my book when a woman came up and said, “You look like a nice man. Could my friends and I share your table?” And before I knew it, four women had gathered around this little table and settled in for the evening.

It turns out they were Teamsters, here for a convention of women Teamsters. Not only did I not know there were women Teamsters, I didn’t know they had conventions! These ladies were employees of the union, not just members, and so they had a lot to say about the organization. But when they started asking me about my life is where I noticed how different that life is.

They asked me where I met my wife. I told them it was on a trip to Guatemala, where we were going to build houses for widows who lost their husbands in the civil wars of the 80s. They asked how many children I have, and were of course shocked when I told them I had eight. But unlike other conversations, where people are shocked and almost offended…these ladies were amazed and almost had a sense of wonder.

They asked if my wife worked. I said she homeschools the kids (more amazement) and also works for a non-profit organization which supports an orphanage in India. That bit of news almost sent them over the edge with awe.

What finally did it for them was when I said one of my kids is going over there to teach English for a few months. I felt kind of awkward as we sat around this little table…four garrulous ladies out for a good time, made speechless (yes, really) by me just telling the stuff my life is made of.

It just seems so normal to me. Why wouldn’t we say Yes when our daughter wants to serve these orphans? Why wouldn’t we serve them ourselves? Why wouldn’t we have lots of kids, and teach them at home so we can spend more time with them? And what better place to meet my future wife than in the act of serving?

But it’s so crazy different, and I had no idea. In fact, if I did know the effect my story would have had on them, I’m sure I wouldn’t have told it. I just didn’t know that it was so different, or that they would react in the way they did.

But it is different. God has done something to our family, something that makes us, well, different. I had no idea.

I started to understand, though, when one of the women around the table — the one who first approached me — began to look sad. She was reflecting on her own life, and said she doesn’t do any of these things. I shared with her that we don’t have to do everything, but we can do something. I said, “You don’t have to go to India, but you probably should support a child there.”

We each have a little corner of the world which God gives us to manage. We don’t have to solve all the world’s problems, but we do need to take care of our corner. Mine happens to have some orphans in it. What’s in your corner?